‘Slow Horses’: James Callis Says ‘Diana Is Claude’s Security Blanket’

[Warning: The below contains MAJOR spoilers for Slow Horses Season 4 Episode 5 “Grave Danger.”]

Slow Horse in danger!

The penultimate episode of Slow Horses Season 4 ends with River in MI5’s custody—specifically Emma Flyte’s (Ruth Bradley)—only for mercenary Patrice (Tom Wozniczka), who works for Frank Harkness (Hugo Weaving), to attack, leaving agents dead, Emma down, and take River (Jack Lowden) with him. How will MI5, specifically First Desk Claude Whelan, react? TV Insider talked to James Callis about that, his character’s dynamic with Diana Taverner (Kristin Scott Thomas), who’s clearly much more comfortable in charge, and more.

The fifth episode ends with River being taken at the end of the episode. What can you preview about how Claude deals with that in the finale?

James Callis: Claude always believes that he is doing the right thing, and one might say thus the world is destroyed by people with good intentions. And to be fair, looking at the picture, one can see why he does what he does—at least I think I can. But I suppose what it it’s like is, you’ve looked at Claude and he’s been mild-mannered and deferential to a degree and all of this stuff, and suddenly it’s like somebody accelerated down and has gone from naught to like 60 in three seconds. Like, oh f**k, where did that come from? It’s like a flip.

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There’s a lot of, especially at the beginning part of the fourth season, Claude being a bit like an ostrich. It’s like if I stick my head in the sand, then maybe this will just go away, and then whatever, and this stuff is not going away. So then it’s like, okay, well, I tried the ostrich [way] or hopefully this thing will just pan out or just disappear and now I’ve got to be a snake wrangler today, immediately I have to get this thing in the bag. So [it’s] learning on the job.

Would you say he’s feeling any more comfortable now with this job than he was when we first saw with the beginning of the season, or is it just that he wants to be feeling more comfortable?

I was thinking about this. To a degree, Claude has been given the job—not that he didn’t seek it, I mean, his name must have been on a list, but it is fascinating. It’s obviously not about what you know evidently, but about maybe who you know, and after Ingrid, he’s considered to be a safer pair of hands. So Diana Taverner not only is incredible at her job, she loves her job, she loves it.

Claude, I don’t think Claude does. That’s the really interesting thing. It looks good with, I’ve got some paper here with MI5 on it, and that feels quite nice, to send out a letter. But when it comes to operationally, there’s that phrase, heavy is the head that wears the crown. And part of it is he’s a bit like the honorable boy-scout or a schoolboy. It’s like, well, we’re going to play by the rules and we’re going to dot the I’s and cross the T’s and everything’s going to be… It’s like, no, no, it’s not. It’s not, operationally. It doesn’t work that way. I suppose in Claude’s mind, he’s constantly thinking about, we are the good guys, we are the good guys, and the good guys behave in a certain way. Not necessarily.

The Claude-Diana dynamic is great. What did you enjoy most about that?

Everything. I just love being with Kristin. I would be trying, I suppose, sometimes to try and make her laugh, and the thing actually is the fact that she didn’t laugh that made me laugh because she’s not going to break character ever and just wonderful, wonderful. Occasionally I’d look up and catch her because it’s the game of, as it were, cat and mouse, that she doesn’t want to be there. She doesn’t want to be next to him but in that way can’t exactly show him that she doesn’t like that. She’s got these little points where he’s not looking at her, where she’s reassessing her life choices that she’s in the same room but has to get rid of that very quickly and kind of put her on a smile that she’s being attentive. Being with Kristin is like an acting masterclass. It’s just fantastic and also quite high energy and friction, backward and forward. That was all just so much fun to play.

Apple TV+

Will we see you in Season 5?

There’s a chance. There’s a chance.

How much do you think Claude needs that control, and how much is it just that he thinks he should have it?

I think that Claude’s really entitled, which is also a problem. So there’s this thing about, well, of course, I’ve come to this place, it says on the door that I’m the man in charge, so I’m the man in charge. What do we do now? So it is surprising to him that in this new arena, he should be having to prove or that he knows what’s going on. And there’s a really interesting thing about people. Some people are born to this, some people aren’t. There are certain things you can learn on the job, but if you’re not really right for the job, it doesn’t matter what you… Maybe you can use the things you learn in another job that you might be better suited to afterwards.

There is a point at which in some way, it’s like Claude’s not going to go. There’s certain things he will do. There’s certain things he won’t do. Diana Taverner will do anything operationally really and to get the job done. And if you are going to be in charge of the security service, then you have to have that kind of assurance of yourself to be self-assured that you know at least to yourself that you are doing the right thing. Claude has definitely come from committees and working with people in groups on strategies around computers and whatever it is. So, in fact, it’s a bit like Diana Taverner is Claude’s security blanket in this bizarre —he wants to hold it, but it’s got static.

Slow Horses, Season 4 Finale, Wednesday, October 9, Apple TV+